El_Guapo
01-14 10:19 AM
The right to control the beneficiary is different from actual control. An employer may have the right to control the beneficiary's job-related duties and yet not excercise actual control over each function performed by that beneficiary. The employer-employee relationship hinges on the right to control the beneficiary.
Don't all companies have the right to control the beneficiary? For instance, a sponsoring company has every right to determine if an employee shall be placed on a project billed at $50/hr or if they seek another project/client with a higher billing rate. Similarly, the employer has every right to determine if the employee will be placed at a client requiring a project manager or at a client requiring a developer, thus effectively controlling the beneficiary's job-related duties!
Don't all companies have the right to control the beneficiary? For instance, a sponsoring company has every right to determine if an employee shall be placed on a project billed at $50/hr or if they seek another project/client with a higher billing rate. Similarly, the employer has every right to determine if the employee will be placed at a client requiring a project manager or at a client requiring a developer, thus effectively controlling the beneficiary's job-related duties!
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advad
07-15 01:01 AM
Hi there,
Here is my situation, any help to resolve this is appreciated.
- My self (primary) & my wife's(derivative) I-485's (PD June 2002) were filed in March 2007.
- My I-485 was approved in July 2007, my wife's was pending due to NC.
- My wife's employer filed PERM (PD June 2007) & then filed I-140 in March 2008.
- We recently contacted NSC regarding my wife's case status, we received a letter from them stating that, her I485 is waiting for I-140 to get approved.
They linked her new I-140 to her pending I-485 that was filed as derivative.Is this USCIS error?.How to correct this error and have them consider her I-485 application as a derivative application?.
Thanks for your help.
Here is my situation, any help to resolve this is appreciated.
- My self (primary) & my wife's(derivative) I-485's (PD June 2002) were filed in March 2007.
- My I-485 was approved in July 2007, my wife's was pending due to NC.
- My wife's employer filed PERM (PD June 2007) & then filed I-140 in March 2008.
- We recently contacted NSC regarding my wife's case status, we received a letter from them stating that, her I485 is waiting for I-140 to get approved.
They linked her new I-140 to her pending I-485 that was filed as derivative.Is this USCIS error?.How to correct this error and have them consider her I-485 application as a derivative application?.
Thanks for your help.
aka
12-13 11:50 AM
Discrimination in employment based on nationality is not allowed. However, can we extend the argument to the employment based immigration? We can always choose to take that promotion though we will lose our place in the queue.
Leaving the question of fairness aside, under the current legal framework my guess is we do not have a case.
This is a very interesting angle... even though on the surface it looks like we have a choice in taking that promotion and losing our place in queue, it is not really a choice. Do this a couple of times and your six years on H1-B expire, you basically have to leave your job and go back to your country. So taking a promotion is eventually a dead end. I think by extension, we can legally argue that this per-country based quota system is really (inadvertently) leading to discrimination in our employment based on nationality (which is unconstitutional).
Leaving the question of fairness aside, under the current legal framework my guess is we do not have a case.
This is a very interesting angle... even though on the surface it looks like we have a choice in taking that promotion and losing our place in queue, it is not really a choice. Do this a couple of times and your six years on H1-B expire, you basically have to leave your job and go back to your country. So taking a promotion is eventually a dead end. I think by extension, we can legally argue that this per-country based quota system is really (inadvertently) leading to discrimination in our employment based on nationality (which is unconstitutional).
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snthampi
07-30 01:11 PM
Met this dude once in a grocery store, he and his hot wife gave me the amway speil. I said listen buddy give me a time to visit your house and number. I called him and we played phone tag, one day I called and his wife picked up, i ASKED IF i could come, she was hesitant and said he was out of state for a conference but I convinced her that it's ok. When I arrived I brought a bottle of wine and then she was all over me in 5 mins. Sigh what a wonderful time....
Sounds like a fake story???? Or may be true. But is very very funny :D
Sounds like a fake story???? Or may be true. But is very very funny :D
more...
sbabunle
11-12 01:31 AM
Having said all these, let me ask you something?
How many of you wrote to Dept. Of Labor to stop Labor
substitution when they put a comment period for the proposed
removal of Labor Sub?
Everybody knows that the system is broken. The whole point
is what are we doing to fix it? This is a foriegn land. So we have to
work thrice of 4 times harder to change the system in place. Are we
doing that?
How many of you wrote to Dept. Of Labor to stop Labor
substitution when they put a comment period for the proposed
removal of Labor Sub?
Everybody knows that the system is broken. The whole point
is what are we doing to fix it? This is a foriegn land. So we have to
work thrice of 4 times harder to change the system in place. Are we
doing that?
kshitijnt
04-01 07:59 PM
Some time back when I asked my chinese colleagues to join IV they commented that immigrationvoice.org is an "indian" immigration forum...
No wonder they felt that way.
So if stop discussing this thread, will they join us?
No wonder they felt that way.
So if stop discussing this thread, will they join us?
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logiclife
05-10 05:19 PM
The slowness that results because of employer petition and bureaucratic delays(backlogs centers) and quota delays(retrogression) IS A HUGE PROBLEM. Please read my original post.
I am not saying that US system is perfect. I am saying that the employer-petition(if working properly and speedily) is better than points-based system(as two different comparable methods of adjudication for immigration) to protect the workforce from oversupply of labor.
If current system wasnt a problem, our work would be done. If the whole GC process took less than 2 years, it would be not bad and being stuck with one employer for 2 years is probably workable for most people.
And yes, please dont get me wrong, IV has not changed its goals or diluted its goals, I am merely voicing my opinion on the debate/discussion over different countries' immigration system and how they stack up against each other - both for immigrants and for those countries.
I am not saying that US system is perfect. I am saying that the employer-petition(if working properly and speedily) is better than points-based system(as two different comparable methods of adjudication for immigration) to protect the workforce from oversupply of labor.
If current system wasnt a problem, our work would be done. If the whole GC process took less than 2 years, it would be not bad and being stuck with one employer for 2 years is probably workable for most people.
And yes, please dont get me wrong, IV has not changed its goals or diluted its goals, I am merely voicing my opinion on the debate/discussion over different countries' immigration system and how they stack up against each other - both for immigrants and for those countries.
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rajivkane
07-21 09:17 AM
Hi!
My EB2 PD is Octo'2005 & receipt date of I-485 is Aug'17 2007 (receipt date on the receipt received from USCIS)-filed at NSC(although online it shows first Aug'2007 & now October'2007). NSC online update shows Aug 10'2007. What are the chances that my application will be processed in Aug'2008? I received a soft LUD on 07/03/2008 on my I-485/ead/travel document but nothing after that.
Regards,
Raj
My EB2 PD is Octo'2005 & receipt date of I-485 is Aug'17 2007 (receipt date on the receipt received from USCIS)-filed at NSC(although online it shows first Aug'2007 & now October'2007). NSC online update shows Aug 10'2007. What are the chances that my application will be processed in Aug'2008? I received a soft LUD on 07/03/2008 on my I-485/ead/travel document but nothing after that.
Regards,
Raj
more...
DSLStart
09-23 11:44 AM
Current homeowners who are waiting for their GC MUST also be exempted from cap. This clause has to be there. Without having any gurantee of getting GC these folks have invested their savings in buying home even when the prices were high, WHY because they had real intent of making US their permanent home. So these people should too be exempted from EB cap.
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lotsofspace
02-13 11:26 AM
I understand that per country cap is painful for certain countries. But i think they want the employment based immigrant community to be as versatile as possible. I have never heard someone complaining about the DV program where certain countries are not allowed to participate. The reason behind is that they want people from all over the world not just from certain parts of the world.
What part of "Diversity Visa" don't you understand ? The objective there was and is "DIVERSITY" and therefore it make sense (albeit a limited one).
Why should there be a restriction based on COB for employment based visas ? Do you think the Govt can dictate companies to recruit only so many people from different demographies ? I guess not.
Thank God there is no such restriction on H1.
I know it sucks for guys from ROW to be treated on par with ICMP quartet. But is only fair to be treated equally at least in EB categories.
As many have suggested before, this removal of quota in it self will not solve the immigration problem. But is is fair and equitable in my opinion. And the opinion generally is different based on what side of the fence you are on. Recapture and increase of the annual limit to a more reasonable number is the correct solution.
Although it may be kind of wishful thinking from the ICMP quartet to get this per country limitation removed, I personally feel the odds of that happening or very low. So guys from ROW, please chill. You are probably alright. Removing the world hunger is the right thing , but that is not going to happen. Some people continue to eat mud cakes to kill the hunger (This is a true story. I read an article recently).
Most problems in the past have been resolved by not improving/patching the current system/source but by paradigm and systematic shifts. The root of the problem at the conceptual level is the demand for these visas from these countries. If the India and China continue their current growth rate for the next decade, they probably don't need this many visas :) who knows :).
But for now this is a problem for all of us who are struck in this nightmare.
What part of "Diversity Visa" don't you understand ? The objective there was and is "DIVERSITY" and therefore it make sense (albeit a limited one).
Why should there be a restriction based on COB for employment based visas ? Do you think the Govt can dictate companies to recruit only so many people from different demographies ? I guess not.
Thank God there is no such restriction on H1.
I know it sucks for guys from ROW to be treated on par with ICMP quartet. But is only fair to be treated equally at least in EB categories.
As many have suggested before, this removal of quota in it self will not solve the immigration problem. But is is fair and equitable in my opinion. And the opinion generally is different based on what side of the fence you are on. Recapture and increase of the annual limit to a more reasonable number is the correct solution.
Although it may be kind of wishful thinking from the ICMP quartet to get this per country limitation removed, I personally feel the odds of that happening or very low. So guys from ROW, please chill. You are probably alright. Removing the world hunger is the right thing , but that is not going to happen. Some people continue to eat mud cakes to kill the hunger (This is a true story. I read an article recently).
Most problems in the past have been resolved by not improving/patching the current system/source but by paradigm and systematic shifts. The root of the problem at the conceptual level is the demand for these visas from these countries. If the India and China continue their current growth rate for the next decade, they probably don't need this many visas :) who knows :).
But for now this is a problem for all of us who are struck in this nightmare.
more...
swamy
12-13 10:35 PM
in a nutshell:
an end to retrogression for all
increased GC quota
it does remain though, one of our goals in the package because we believe it is fundamentally unfair and should not be apart of a skilled immigration program.
why is this so hard for ppl to understand!
an end to retrogression for all
increased GC quota
it does remain though, one of our goals in the package because we believe it is fundamentally unfair and should not be apart of a skilled immigration program.
why is this so hard for ppl to understand!
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franklin
02-13 01:45 AM
Do not evade the question, is it okay to limit the number of gold medals per country to 7% of all? Talk about athletics or swimming, not soccer. Do you believe there are "too many" swimmers from Australia or the USA in every Olympics? It just does not seem right... the quota system kills competitive spirit.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with skill level. Consider this also, if no other countries come close to the 7% limit, but India and China are maxed out. Guess who loses just because of an arbitrary limit? Guess where those unused greencards go?
They go to a pile of greencards, left unused and wasted. Wash, rinse, repeat the same cycle year on year. June 07 will be a looooooong way away (if you are from a severely retrogressed country), don't kid yourself.
btw... i was agreeing with abhijitp.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with skill level. Consider this also, if no other countries come close to the 7% limit, but India and China are maxed out. Guess who loses just because of an arbitrary limit? Guess where those unused greencards go?
They go to a pile of greencards, left unused and wasted. Wash, rinse, repeat the same cycle year on year. June 07 will be a looooooong way away (if you are from a severely retrogressed country), don't kid yourself.
btw... i was agreeing with abhijitp.
more...
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neoklaus
02-13 03:05 PM
Are you suggesting that IV's efforts would increase the wait times for ROW?
What incentive does ROW have to work with IV then?
Generally speakin' we are all "Rest of the World".
Let's not just be theoretic. Our positive thinking and movement together will help resolve the issues.
Even that I'm here since 2000 & my husband 1999(H1B-ROW) we will wait and fight together with India, China...
Go, India! Go, China!
What incentive does ROW have to work with IV then?
Generally speakin' we are all "Rest of the World".
Let's not just be theoretic. Our positive thinking and movement together will help resolve the issues.
Even that I'm here since 2000 & my husband 1999(H1B-ROW) we will wait and fight together with India, China...
Go, India! Go, China!
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vkrishn
07-27 11:04 PM
Amway guys motto is to harass people even after you say NO and its been the same experienced by some of my friends and see similar ones in this thread as well. So again in plain english No means NO.. (If you did not understand what i said in plain english..)
"If you are not interested why would they bother you?"
Ask your amway friends/buddies and you are more than welcome to join them in the backseat of a police car with handcuffs.. :D..
Nobody harassing anyone. You are doing it to yourself. If you are not interested why would they bother you?
Arrested?? make me laugh...please go ahead.
"If you are not interested why would they bother you?"
Ask your amway friends/buddies and you are more than welcome to join them in the backseat of a police car with handcuffs.. :D..
Nobody harassing anyone. You are doing it to yourself. If you are not interested why would they bother you?
Arrested?? make me laugh...please go ahead.
more...
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aps
09-23 01:53 AM
This is not fair and good idea. what about people waiting in line for years and invested their money elsewhere because of this green card delays or those who do not have enough money and job in this market situation. All of the sudden you are brining this idea. This is not fair. This is kind of buying green card. There is a investment based green card category available for that. I request you to go through that channel if you are rich. Not all employment based green card seekers are rich. Please keep that in mind.
thanks,
aps
thanks,
aps
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vdlrao
07-22 01:45 PM
Here's an Apr-2006 EB2-I approval posted today on Murthy forum:
http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1024039761&f=1474093861&m=8351049171
Please post the priorirty date of EB2 India/China approvals along with the approval date information, in the following thread ,for EB2 India/china approvals from Aug 2008 bulletin released date(Jul 11th).
I know they will approve pending EB2 India/China applications which they process even before Aug 1st 2008.
Please post the approvals information in the following thread and update the IV Tracker so that it would be informative(helpful) for all of us.
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20230&highlight=vdlrao
http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1024039761&f=1474093861&m=8351049171
Please post the priorirty date of EB2 India/China approvals along with the approval date information, in the following thread ,for EB2 India/china approvals from Aug 2008 bulletin released date(Jul 11th).
I know they will approve pending EB2 India/China applications which they process even before Aug 1st 2008.
Please post the approvals information in the following thread and update the IV Tracker so that it would be informative(helpful) for all of us.
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20230&highlight=vdlrao
more...
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vikki76
02-19 12:03 AM
I like it too Alisa.Very well said.
H1-B, High Skill Immigration needs to be separated and we should know an answer from US govt/public official ,what matters most.
If I don't get a GC within next 2 years, I will be forced to start my new hi-tech venture from Bangalore.
H1-B, High Skill Immigration needs to be separated and we should know an answer from US govt/public official ,what matters most.
If I don't get a GC within next 2 years, I will be forced to start my new hi-tech venture from Bangalore.
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sargon
03-28 01:45 AM
What is the relevance of such long boring rant on an immigration website? What's worse, its not even your original composition. Just some cut and paste from other websites. Cease and desist from such behavior.
http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/mar/27/guest-column-tarun-vijay-on-dynasty-and-the-varun-effect.htm
...
And then they say, they are the future of India.
http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/mar/27/guest-column-tarun-vijay-on-dynasty-and-the-varun-effect.htm
...
And then they say, they are the future of India.
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jchan
05-29 03:18 PM
Well, I think the discussion is about people playing by rules are getting pushed back by those exploiting loopholes.
Some members were trying to say we should not fight fraud because the root cause is insufficient visa number (and country quota). While he was right about the root cause, that does not mean we can't do the two things at the same time.
See what happened to H1B when USCIS acted seriously about fraud? Most of the fake 'employers' or those applying H1B only to rotate people in the US got the message and really thought twice before they file a case. Result: two months from 04/01, there are still 20k H1B quota left. And this didn't even need any legislative change.
What if USCIS starts scrutinizing EB1 cases for multi national executives? In no time they will find 50% of employee from an Indian IT firm are executives. This is not hard -- by common sense a very very small portion of employee are executives.
Someone said we would do the same if in their position. Well they didn't know some people do have a line of morality. I am from China. There are many ways to apply refugee being a Chinese -- one child policy, Fa Lun Gong, etc. Yet I refused to do that and most of my countrymen didn't.
If you didn't have patience to read every word of my reply, what I wanted to say is, fighting fraud and advocating more visa numbers are not mutual exclusive. We do not have to unite those who get their Green Card by fraud, because our interest are not the same with theirs.
Can not agree more.
We get engaged in all kinds of discussions EB1 Vs EB2, EB-I Vs EB ROW. bulletin predictions...But we all skilled immigrants can not figure out how to unite and resolve the big issue of backlog. When one person suggests any initiative( flower campaign, call campaign, letter campaign etc.) more 20 people hammer him or her and spend their full energy in proving how suggested idea will not work. Next time the guy does not even think about suggesting anything. On top of that some will come up with their line" Have you contributed, If not then do that first".Our lack of unity will keep us here for a long time to come. In coming months and years, some people will lose interest, stop visiting this site and move on. Others will come to see if there is any POSITIVE news and some will still keep fighting over the issues of EB1 vs EB2 vs India vs China Vs ROW.
Good Luck
Some members were trying to say we should not fight fraud because the root cause is insufficient visa number (and country quota). While he was right about the root cause, that does not mean we can't do the two things at the same time.
See what happened to H1B when USCIS acted seriously about fraud? Most of the fake 'employers' or those applying H1B only to rotate people in the US got the message and really thought twice before they file a case. Result: two months from 04/01, there are still 20k H1B quota left. And this didn't even need any legislative change.
What if USCIS starts scrutinizing EB1 cases for multi national executives? In no time they will find 50% of employee from an Indian IT firm are executives. This is not hard -- by common sense a very very small portion of employee are executives.
Someone said we would do the same if in their position. Well they didn't know some people do have a line of morality. I am from China. There are many ways to apply refugee being a Chinese -- one child policy, Fa Lun Gong, etc. Yet I refused to do that and most of my countrymen didn't.
If you didn't have patience to read every word of my reply, what I wanted to say is, fighting fraud and advocating more visa numbers are not mutual exclusive. We do not have to unite those who get their Green Card by fraud, because our interest are not the same with theirs.
Can not agree more.
We get engaged in all kinds of discussions EB1 Vs EB2, EB-I Vs EB ROW. bulletin predictions...But we all skilled immigrants can not figure out how to unite and resolve the big issue of backlog. When one person suggests any initiative( flower campaign, call campaign, letter campaign etc.) more 20 people hammer him or her and spend their full energy in proving how suggested idea will not work. Next time the guy does not even think about suggesting anything. On top of that some will come up with their line" Have you contributed, If not then do that first".Our lack of unity will keep us here for a long time to come. In coming months and years, some people will lose interest, stop visiting this site and move on. Others will come to see if there is any POSITIVE news and some will still keep fighting over the issues of EB1 vs EB2 vs India vs China Vs ROW.
Good Luck
satyasaich
01-13 04:04 PM
Nuke buddy are you off your rocker. These guys will kill you for even suggesting it. I myselft have taken all kinds of abuses from everyone here and i myself had the presence of mind to not go there. Leave it . That law is the law. Of course it did hurt EB3 but what it did is take the unfair benefit that EB3 was getting because of wrong interpetation of the law. No all that is water under the bridge.
Once upon a time in this country ( & based on situation 'at' that time), laws were made and hence some classifications such as EB1/2/3 etc;
I'm not here to waste any one's time( including mine) but why shouldn't we ( i mean IV which includes "all" members) try for following
1. Automatic consideration of any EB3 after 5 years of filing date of LC ( conditions being verifiable and clean work history ) to EB2 such as a person in the queue shall be able to apply him/her self by providing facts such as 5 years of W2s, say for example.
2. Any spill over from ROW must "first" be made available to "highly retrogressed EB category" regardless of the country. Simple rule: make the spill over available to "that" EB category where there is most retrogession.
Meaning not the vertical spill as it is happening now
AND
3. Remove the count of dependent family members against number of visas granted per year in any of EB category
Once upon a time in this country ( & based on situation 'at' that time), laws were made and hence some classifications such as EB1/2/3 etc;
I'm not here to waste any one's time( including mine) but why shouldn't we ( i mean IV which includes "all" members) try for following
1. Automatic consideration of any EB3 after 5 years of filing date of LC ( conditions being verifiable and clean work history ) to EB2 such as a person in the queue shall be able to apply him/her self by providing facts such as 5 years of W2s, say for example.
2. Any spill over from ROW must "first" be made available to "highly retrogressed EB category" regardless of the country. Simple rule: make the spill over available to "that" EB category where there is most retrogession.
Meaning not the vertical spill as it is happening now
AND
3. Remove the count of dependent family members against number of visas granted per year in any of EB category
swo
07-13 11:46 AM
My friend bought a house at the Elginton and Avenue in Toronto for $350K in 1998. The house is now worth $950K.
My sister bought a house in Markham in 2005 for $265K and it is now worth $325K. That's almost 20% in 3 years.
This must be the stagnant Canadian real estate market you are talking about.
The recent growth in the US real estate market is the highest escalation in US history. It is well recognized as a function of the earlier tech bubble and loan availability. Some people are also now expecting severe consequences econonically because of it. Housing is almost certainly likely to return to normal growth patterns moving forward.
By the way, todays headling on the money.cnn.com homepage is "Housing slump gets longer, and longer ..."
I'm done debating with someone that comes up with "symbolic examples", is unable to present a single coherent argument, unable to cite statistics, unable to even say they've lived in Canada.
Good Bless America. And Canada. And Australia. And India while we're at it!
That was a symbolic example. I meant to say that in Canada Housing is just meant housing not the investment. Here in capitalist market housing is never been a housing alone , prime motto to have housing is investment. If we might be debating this 3 years back on this forum ( In booming Real Estate market, yep, US GC Process was sucker then too :) ) you would not have anything against US real estate market to argue about. And that's the point. Housing market here too has cycles and if you wait out patiently you would have appreciation in a scale that normal Canadian may have to dream about.
And that is the point. If lending industry seems to be loosely controlled to you in the USA then yes there are ways to deal with it. You have to learn them. In Canada, in your terms, so called "Good loans" has kept Canadian economy "Welfare economy" only. To progress dynamically any country should have economy to be able to have kicks in, and USA market has that capacity. Today you are ranting about bad housing in USA... agreed, but seeing your signature, it seems that you never want to leave USA and with your claim "to love USA", I believe you will still be around here for years debating with me.. (wait, let me go grab a cup of cofee.:) .. I also need "Dynamic Kick" to debate with you) , I will be able to show you how much appreciation average american can have on average home. Did not you hear NPR yesterday? Housing market is coming back. Now housing is always the prime factor in any economy and so I choose that example. More or less it is true for every industry except oil in Canada. And mind that this forum is not to prove where the housing is better and so I do not want to go into minute statistical detail but most people in Canada and USA except yourself would agree with me.
My sister bought a house in Markham in 2005 for $265K and it is now worth $325K. That's almost 20% in 3 years.
This must be the stagnant Canadian real estate market you are talking about.
The recent growth in the US real estate market is the highest escalation in US history. It is well recognized as a function of the earlier tech bubble and loan availability. Some people are also now expecting severe consequences econonically because of it. Housing is almost certainly likely to return to normal growth patterns moving forward.
By the way, todays headling on the money.cnn.com homepage is "Housing slump gets longer, and longer ..."
I'm done debating with someone that comes up with "symbolic examples", is unable to present a single coherent argument, unable to cite statistics, unable to even say they've lived in Canada.
Good Bless America. And Canada. And Australia. And India while we're at it!
That was a symbolic example. I meant to say that in Canada Housing is just meant housing not the investment. Here in capitalist market housing is never been a housing alone , prime motto to have housing is investment. If we might be debating this 3 years back on this forum ( In booming Real Estate market, yep, US GC Process was sucker then too :) ) you would not have anything against US real estate market to argue about. And that's the point. Housing market here too has cycles and if you wait out patiently you would have appreciation in a scale that normal Canadian may have to dream about.
And that is the point. If lending industry seems to be loosely controlled to you in the USA then yes there are ways to deal with it. You have to learn them. In Canada, in your terms, so called "Good loans" has kept Canadian economy "Welfare economy" only. To progress dynamically any country should have economy to be able to have kicks in, and USA market has that capacity. Today you are ranting about bad housing in USA... agreed, but seeing your signature, it seems that you never want to leave USA and with your claim "to love USA", I believe you will still be around here for years debating with me.. (wait, let me go grab a cup of cofee.:) .. I also need "Dynamic Kick" to debate with you) , I will be able to show you how much appreciation average american can have on average home. Did not you hear NPR yesterday? Housing market is coming back. Now housing is always the prime factor in any economy and so I choose that example. More or less it is true for every industry except oil in Canada. And mind that this forum is not to prove where the housing is better and so I do not want to go into minute statistical detail but most people in Canada and USA except yourself would agree with me.